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Cindy Hood

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Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 844
 #31 
P.S.  

On the subject of R.S. 500:  Layla by Derek and the Dominos came in at #27.  Not too shabby for a list of 500, though I'd rate it as #1.

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Ang Jones

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 #32 
T - I don't dispute you were referring to a printed article but your challenge to Maui Brian Fan was to find an earlier reference to Brian as a genius - you didn't specify it had to be printed. Although Murry's comment wasn't available to the public then (as far as I know) it suggests that such a comment had been made before about Brian.

I don't really care which of us is right on this one though. There are far more interesting avenues to explore on this subject.
t bedford

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 #33 
Cindy, I think Spector lost his confidence after the British Invasion, and especially after the "River Deep, Mountain High" single by Ike & Tina Turner failed to chart above #88 (in 1967). Phil had some reason to be egotistical....he was a self made millionaire (back when that was a really impressive amount) by the time he was 21...and may not have had the maturity to be otherwise.

And of course, Brian took what Spector was doing, and made it a stepping stone to his own greater achievements...."edit record" or not. I don't take offense at the words, again....consider the wigs before considering what he says. I take offense at: "He Hit Me (It Felt Like a Kiss)"...

As for a Rolling Stone list....I think that's the one where in 500 records, they had not one spot for the Four Seasons. Is there anywhere to view (and search) the list, or do I have to scroll through 500 songs (because that's not going to happen...)?

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Cindy Hood

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 #34 
t- that's the very frustrating thing about the Rolling Stone's lists - there is no list.  You have to look at each one individually and I don't have the patience either.  That's why I only went through the first 30.
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Keri

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Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 74
 #35 
Well yes, Phil is not generous here, Phil had talent but I think Brian had more. Brian appreciated Phil's talent but not vice versa. I think Phil is wrong about Brian trying to get the sound of Be My Baby, yes he was influenced by it & obsessed by it, but i don't think he ever tried to reproduce it. To my ears he surpassed it. And of course Brian knew Good Vibrations was an edit record, every time he talks about it he talks about using different studios, Phil makes out as though this somehow diminishes the track, I don't see that. Phil's opinion is interesting because it is his, but I don't think it shines any real light on Brian's gift. 
josephmarkdavis

Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 194
 #36 
Brian Wilson is light years ahead of Phil Spector. He sailed passed him long ago and never looked back. Phil Spector never did anything close to California Girls or Good Vibrations.
Frankie Teardrop

Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 276
 #37 
Good point, Joseph - I mean, look at all the rubbish on this collection...

1. To Know His Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears2. Corrine, Corrina - Ray Peterson3. Spanish Harlem - Ben E. King4. Pretty Little Angel Eyes - Curtis Lee5. Every Breath I Take - Gene Pitney6. I Love How You Love Me - The Paris Sisters7. Under The Moon Of Love - Curtis Lee8. There's No Other Like My Baby - The Crystals9. Uptown - The Crystals10. He Hit Me (It Felt Like A Kiss) - The Crystals11. He's A Rebel - The Crystals12. Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah - Bob B. Soxx And The Blue Jeans13. Puddin' N' Tain - The Alley Cats14. He's Sure The Boy I Love - The Crystals15. Why Do Lovers Break Each Other's Hearts - Bob B. Soxx And The Blue Jeans16. (Today I Met) The Boy I'm Gonna Marry - Darlene Love17. Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals18. Heartbreaker - The Crystals19. Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love - Veronica20. Chapel Of Love - Darlene Love21. Not Too Young To Get Married - Bob B. Soxx And The Blue Jeans22. Wait Til My Bobby Gets Home - Darlene Love23. All Grown Up - The CrystalsDisc: 21. Be My Baby - The Ronettes2. Then He Kissed Me - The Crystals3. A Fine, Fine Boy - Darlene Love4. Baby, I Love You - The Ronettes5. I Wonder - The Ronettes6. Girls Can Tell - The Crystals7. Little Boy - The Crystals8. Hold Me Tight - The Treasures9. (The Best Part Of) Breakin' Up - The Ronettes10. Soldier Baby Of Mine - The Ronettes11. Strange Love - Darlene Love12. Stumble And Fall - Darlene Love13. When I Saw You - The Ronettes14. So Young - Veronica15. Do I Love You? - The Ronettes16. Keep On Dancing - The Ronettes17. You, Baby - The Ronettes18. Woman In Love (With You) - The Ronettes19. Walking In The Rain - The RonettesDisc: 31. You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers2. Born To Be Together - The Ronettes3. Just Once In My Life - The Righteous Brothers4. Unchained Melody - The Righteous Brothers5. Is This What I Get For Loving You? - The Ronettes6. Long Way To Be Happy - Darlene Love7. (I Love You) For Sentimental Reasons - The Righteous Brothers8. Ebb Tide - The Righteous Brothers9. This Could Be The Night - The Modern Folk Quartet10. Paradise - The Ronettes11. River Deep-Mountain High - Ike & Tina Turner12. I'll Never Need More Than This - Ike & Tina Turner13. A Love Like Yours (Don't Come Knockin' Everyday) - Ike & Tina Turner14. Save The Last Dance For Me - Ike & Tina Turner15. I Wish I Never Saw The Sunshine - The Ronettes16. You Came, You Saw, You Conquered - The Ronettes17. Black Pearl - Sonny Charles And The Checkmates18. Love Is All I have To Give - The CheckmatesDisc: 41. White Christmas - Darlene Love2. Frosty The Snowman - The Ronettes3. The Bells Of St. Mary - Bob B. Soxx And The Blue Jeans4. Santa Claus Is Coming To Town - The Crystals5. Sleigh Ride - The Ronettes6. Marshmallow World - Darlene Love7. I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus - The Ronettes8. Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer - The Crystals9. Winter Wonderland - Darlene Love10. Parade Of The Wooden Soldiers - The Crystals11. Christmas (Baby Please Come Home) - Darlene Love12. Here Comes Santa Claus - Bob B. Soxx And The Blue Jeans13. Silent Night - Phil Spector And Artists

Terrible. isn't it?

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Keri

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Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 74
 #38 
Frankie did you listen to the interview that was the basis for this thread? Did you get any insight from Phil into the nature of Brian's talent from it? Did it not smell of sour grapes to you? Was it generous? 

Yes, Phil was talented, he created some great pop songs. But don't be surprised that a lot of people on this board prefer Brian's work, including me. I think there is greater colour & feeling & I find it greater art and it just moves me way more than Phil's, if you disagree that's fine. But it is hardly surprising that people here find it hard to swallow when they see Phil (who to them is a lesser artist than Brian) and to whom Brian has always expressed the greatest admiration for, making low swipes at Brian.


Ang Jones

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Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 1,853
 #39 
That pretty much expresses my feelings about it too. I like lots of Spector's music and I think his Christmas album was better than The Beach Boys' - although of course there were more original compositions on the Beach Boys' album - but he brought those Christmas standards bang up to date and made them exciting. However, Brian got to Spector's best and then IMO kept going. With SMiLE, Brian had gone beyond standard pop music or even excellent pop music. And of course Spector's mean-spiritedness about Brian won't make him popular here.
t bedford

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Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 862
 #40 
I think Frankie's post is nothing against Brian Wilson. It's simply an attempt to paint an accurate picture of the huge influence on Brian (and on Shadow Morton, Bob Crewe, etc.) that Phil Spector was.

I simply don't understand how putting down Phil somehow makes Brian greater. (Don't get me wrong, I think Brian is greater, but putting down Phil doesn't "prove" it in any way.) MBF earlier in this thread thinks Phil was "lucky", but when Brian copied what Phil was doing, only then did it become "genius". Hilarious.

Is Phil jealous? Yes.
Is Phil paranoid? Yes.
Is Phil delusional? Yes (particularly if he thinks he looks good in ANY of those wigs).
Do any of those things make his contributions to pop music/rock'n'roll any less? No.

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Al Forsyth

Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 1,138
 #41 
Well, luck is defined as when preparation meets opportunity, so then we make, or break, our own luck.  They sure did as well.  I think that Brian is much more than Phil in the grand scheme of things BUT as far as producers go, both will be mentioned, yet PS was ground breaking there.   Comparisons, ugh, I guess, we all have to make them to justify anything in this world.  It's just something that humans do. 

Frankie puts up a HUGE list there.  Was River Deep, kind of a breaking point for him as was Smile for Brian?  Both were putting their hopes on changing the direction, if you will, of pop music and it didn't happen as expected for either.

Phil Spector was a HUGE influence on Brian Wilson and of course the Wrecking Crew came from the W-O-S producer.   He elevated Brian to a higher level in the push from surf and sand to Pet Sounds.  Brian also had his sights across the pond at the boys recording at EMI/Abbey Road, so that was changing the game as well.

Brian is still working on his craft, and Phil has nothing, and is done.  They can both say what they want however.  Good to look back, but don't forget that it's all moving forward in music. 

They BOTH made great records.  Luck, is what we do with it, in our decision-making process. 

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Ang Jones

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 #42 
As Sir Isaac Newton put it "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
sweeper

Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 69
 #43 
Recently I bought the box set with Spector's first 6 records. Listen to them and you will understand that he has deserved his place in the history of popular music.
Sue Schlichter

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Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 377
 #44 
I am trying to think of someone else in history who was famous for their accomplishments and infamous for their behavior / crimes. Sure there are quite a few. The only one that springs to mind is the murderous love triangle with the famous American architect, Stanford White.

Oh nevermind, don't want to go down that path anyway.

Delusional, yes, those wigs. Desperate for the "Insanity Plea," I'll bet. Even that is premeditated.
Frankie Teardrop

Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 276
 #45 
Keri - of course I listened to the original interview - why else would I contribute to the debate? t makes an excellent point - it's obvious that Spector was a huge influence on BW. Brian took the use of the studio to another level but none of this in any way diminishes the legacy of Spector's output - it was pop genius. I naturally expect the majority of posters here to rate Brian extremely highly. I also, rather naively, expect an open-minded approach and am inevitably disappointed. 


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