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paul g adsett

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Reply with quote  #16 
never one to postulate
(oh no,not me)
but, it's too late to stop now.
it's way past time.
i can't postpone an opinion,
nor curtail a tale,
so shall ride my pony and make an ass of m'self
by pinning the tail on the donkey
(an optional pastime)...

(or something or other).
what i meant to say is,
i get annoyed by music writers who insist on categorising,
making sweeping statements and assumptions
and pigeonholing musicians into categories.
all those terms stifle and contain rather than adequately describe.
'punk' is an attitude that extends beyond basic chord thrash and howl.
i suppose 'post punk' is, in a linear, non-einsteinian trajectory,
an acceptable term, but it's pretty meaningless in describing its catchment area.

end of pompous drivel.
cheers

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paul g adsett

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Reply with quote  #17 
the epitome of punk?
whatevah,,,
truly magnificent, both of 'em, nonetheless:



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John B

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Reply with quote  #18 
"...but ALL rock is punk, what is punk rock?"

-Carl Wilson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
okay, as I predicted...

I do not see a single errant word or vote in Lee's post.   He's right about everything he said.

thanks to paul lower case for authoritatively accurate comments, and yes yes, to all who noticed the proto-punks did very similar if not the same, all the way back to the Trashmen's 'Surfin' Bird' (which outrocks the Ramones' version), or the Kingmen's "Louie Louie" or the Seeds "Pushin' too Hard" or the NY Dolls, of course, "Personality Crisis" or "Patti Smith" with "the Boy Looked at Johnnie" and...well I always liked the attack of Buddy Holly on the Chuck Berry song "Brown Eyed Handsome Man" which is as you know, a rather provocative and political song.  Buddy Holly?  punk.  How about Bruce Springsteen's "Roulette"?  Punk rock.

anyway, my votes, same as Lee's votes:

1) "I Fought the Law"

By the Clash.

1978 was the year Topper Headon joined the group, who was the greatest drummer, no, the greatest instrumentalist in all of punk/new wave.  This song was not on the 1st Clash self-titled LP in England (1977), but was added for America, confusingly with the same name but 1978 songs tacked on top.  The record company didn't think us yanks would understand songs such as "Protex Blue".  They were...right, I don't.  But it rocked, I would have gotten THAT.  This had nothing to do with "London Calling" from the very end of 1979--which is the cover photo for the video, of a picture taken in Austin, Texas.  This song performed live represented the only great 5 minutes of the band's sour film, "Rude Boy."  I have 'The Cost of Living EP' which is where this song originally came from, and which also featured other greatest hits of punk/new wave songs, including 'Gates of the West', "Groovy Times", and "1-2 Got a Crush on You" if I remember correctly.  No group in the world were greater than the Clash at that time.  Were they 'the only band that matters'?  of course not.  arrogant and funny to say that though...

2) "Glad all Over" by the Rezillos

what exactly IS a Rezillo?  I forget.   This one rocks but Lee is right.  didn't need to sound so low-fi towards the end.  good spirited, so Solid 2nd place amongst these, though.

3) "Surf City" by the Ramones

people are going to overrate this because Joey pitches the song correctly and sings his best.  But to me performing your best was punk at its best.  We'll get to that in a second.  Why doesn't the rest of the group do the '2 Girls for Every boy' part?  No, it's not an anti-hippy/free-love comment. It's likely because they couldn't as they were essentially tone deaf.  I rarely heard any other Ramone but Joey sing live.  By the end of the song, it becomes apparent just how bad this group had become by this time.  Hey, you boomers who remember the original?  Don't be afraid to say it.  This is terrible.  Just awful.  gabba gabba, yourself.  Stupid Ramones. 

4) "Paranoid" by the Dickies

Larry, how could you?  Yes, yes, to start with, I was gratified in comparison to the original.  But then it goes on pointlessly--as indeed, did the career of the Dickies, as Lee points out. 



to disagree with the almost-always dependable Larry, the Clash were still punk, why penalize them or change the word simply because of quality--that they got better as they went along?  now, you can't be punk because you're...good?  The Clash were the punk band who would try anything and do anything, all the way through reggae and ska and rockabilly and dub and hip hop, and 'Sandinista!'.   Yes, yes, of course, punk was an attitude, but it was music too, which was a form of aggressive and hopefully honest and provocative and no BS rock n roll. 

all the other things you heard, well most of them, were rationalizations.  e.g., 'we make lots of mistakes on stage, we didn't tune our guitars quite well enough, our members are on terrible drugs, our members and fans wear safety pins and didn't have time to buy new clothes or do the laundry and so forth, whatayathink we are?  opera stars?  modern jazz?  honor students?  no we're punks.  we're miscreants.  we'll barf on your shoes.  stick your middle fingers up, that's us.  belch.  see you at the hospital or the jail...all rationalizations.  See, Malcolm McLaren's remarks in 'The Great Rock N Roll Swindle'. I see almost no irony there.  That's what happened.  Convince people that playing and singing badly is better than playing and singing well.  


this below was a song my own punk band had.  We were called Kaos, after the 'Get Smart' bad guys.  We thought we would play the theme song to the TV show, before our first song.

...Sometimes I may be down in the dumps, but Sid Vicious was my kind of punk
He didn't sell out, he didn't sell out,
He never ceased to offend
He didn't sell out, he didn't sell out
Right up til the end.

Though some people may fret, we'll never forget the example you set
Mainlining heroin you ended your life
You killed your girlfriend with a knife

(but)...he never sold out, he never sold out
He never ceased to offend...
He never sold out, no he never sold out
Right up til the end.

and so forth.

--which is to say, punk rock needn't turn me into an idiot, as that punk P.Townsend said.  I never signed up for punk's tragedies and humiliations.  I wanted to grow up to be what I am now.  A 50ish father driving multiple kids to football practice...
--------------------------------------

and the finger up the nose doofishness of Greenday?   Never as in not once, did I see any of that with the Jam or the Clash. 

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Larry Franz

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Reply with quote  #19 
paul -- Yes, connectedness. I worked at a bank down the street from McCabe's, but only ventured in there once on a lunchtime stroll. I also worked in the Valley for a time, but never saw Valley Girl. Although I still revere Fast Times at Ridgemont High, the Valley movie Nicolas Cage appeared in the year before. We got to see X once at a New Year's Eve concert in downtown Los Angeles. Another early LA punk band, Black Flag, also played that night.

Two from X's second album, Wild Gift: "We're Desperate" and "In This House That I Call Home"




A relatively mainstream selection from Black Flag: "TV Party"


More representative of their oeuvre: "Nervous Breakdown"


John B -- I don't have any personal or emotional connection to the word "punk". To me, it's just a label that's best applied to those brief, noisy, fast, angry-sounding songs on early albums by bands like the Clash and X and more albums by the Ramones. In that sense, it's like "surf music". The Beach Boys were still said to be playing surf music in 1966. But like the Beach Boys, the Clash went on to other things.

The Clash, "Career Opportunities" (1977) and "Charlie Don't Surf" (1980)




PS -- I thought their "I Fought the Law" was kind of boring, but "Paranoia" wasn't.

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John B

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Reply with quote  #20 
'Boring'?  Larry, really?  

I'm guessing you did not first hear the song "I Fought the Law" in the context I did, in 'The Cost of Living EP' because with those songs, it was very exciting!   What do you think of the song 'Gates of the West' with the lyrics about Little Richard, 'he's telling the waitress he's great!' as they were standing at the gates of the west 'on the shadows of a perfect crime', that is, of going back to Central Texas and Northern California--where the Pistols had been beaten up and failed, in anticipation of conquering the U.S. and then the whole bleep world?  I always thought that 'Eastside Jimmy and Southside Sue' was a reference to Springsteen, and 'both said they needed something new'...(Bruce did not make records by law after Born to Run 75 until summer of 78 Darkness).  Bobby Fuller was from Texas, and he went to L.A. to have hits before having gasoline shoved down his throat.  When Texans heard the Clash's version of "I fought the Law" it was universally accepted as showing that the Clash's heart was in the right place.

on the other hand, I know L.A. punk.  I heard it at the time.  amusing to think that as a political protest song, Black Flag sang about watching TV and drinking beer.   X was really not (totally) 'desperate' (to the max) were they?  I remember seeing that L.A. punk band that Danny Hutton supposedly managed.  Fear.  they ambled and tuned and started and stopped.  sounded just like a sound check.  but it was their 'performance' and then it was over.  and then I remember that awful movie, the end of Western Civilization.  It was ...not very good.  Then, part II was about metal, the music that much more than punk, is familiar to Los Angeles ethos, right?
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Larry Franz

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Reply with quote  #21 
"I Fought the Law" was extremely exciting in 1979. I remember it fondly. This week, for me anyway, not so much. "Gates of the West" never made an impression.

Yet another Black Flag song about the politics of beer (the liquid opium of the masses): "Six Pack"


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kds

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Franz
"I Fought the Law" was extremely exciting in 1979. I remember it fondly. This week, for me anyway, not so much. "Gates of the West" never made an impression.

Yet another Black Flag song about the politics of beer (the liquid opium of the masses): "Six Pack"




Six Pack and TV Party = Winning combination 
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bonnie bella

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Reply with quote  #23 
A controversial week, t.  What is punk but a mere moment in time and a lot of thrashed instruments?

John B.  If you've got any remaining photos of you in that punk band, you should share them!  [biggrin]

A bit 'o kiwi punk.

Die! Die! Die! "HowYe". 



The Rabble "Seeking".



Observation; you're never going to find a punk band called "Puppies and Posies" or anything remotely like that.

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John B

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Reply with quote  #24 
maybe a winning combo, but not very punk...

btw, my own group were just for laughs.  we knew we were terrible and we never played even one live gig in any public venue.   but we had some funny songs.   bonnie bella, you would be disappointed.  I was very thin and had Kurt Cobain/Joey Ramone/65 Beatles hair. only it was yellow.
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bonnie bella

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Reply with quote  #25 
Ha!  Exactly as I imagined. For what else is punk but skinny white guys and confused hair?  [smile]

Elemeno P "Fast Times in Tahoe".


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t bedford

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Reply with quote  #26 
Thanks to the voters so far: kds, Lee, Cindy, Larry, Al & John B.

kds, do I have to say I used "Paranoid" to see what you thought of it? Apparently, not much. Maybe I should have gone with their cover of the Monkees "She":


Lee, The Rezillos are currently on tour (playing Bristol UK on 3 November), and "Granny" is looking okay, no?
[image] 
The Rezillos 2017

Cindy, it seems most peoples favorite version of a song, is the version they first became familiar with

Larry, ignoring what I just told Cindy, I actually prefer the Clash's IFTL over Bobby Fuller Four.

Al, Waitresses were actually a side project of members of Akron's Tin Huey, who were signed in the frenzy right after Devo took off. Unfortunately, Tin Huey didn't have the same success.

paul, XTC is always welcome, punk or not.

John B, Thanks for the Carl Wilson quote.

BTW, the Dickies didn't disappear immediately...in 1988 they did the theme song to "Killer Klowns from Outer Space"!


Thanks for videos from kds, Larry, Al, paul & bonnie.





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Al Forsyth

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Reply with quote  #27 
T and Paul, aren't The Sex Pistols the prototype from the UK?  You can say yes, Patti Smith and the Ramones here in the US.  Larry - from the west coast, X, of course. 

Bonnie nails it: "skinny white guys and confused hair". But the girls were in it as well. 
http://flavorwire.com/199630/15-essential-women-punk-icons

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kds

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by t bedford
Thanks to the voters so far: kds, Lee, Cindy, Larry, Al & John B.

kds, do I have to say I used "Paranoid" to see what you thought of it? Apparently, not much. Maybe I should have gone with their cover of the Monkees "She":


Lee, The Rezillos are currently on tour (playing Bristol UK on 3 November), and "Granny" is looking okay, no?
[image] 
The Rezillos 2017

Cindy, it seems most peoples favorite version of a song, is the version they first became familiar with

Larry, ignoring what I just told Cindy, I actually prefer the Clash's IFTL over Bobby Fuller Four.

Al, Waitresses were actually a side project of members of Akron's Tin Huey, who were signed in the frenzy right after Devo took off. Unfortunately, Tin Huey didn't have the same success.

paul, XTC is always welcome, punk or not.

John B, Thanks for the Carl Wilson quote.

BTW, the Dickies didn't disappear immediately...in 1988 they did the theme song to "Killer Klowns from Outer Space"!


Thanks for videos from kds, Larry, Al, paul & bonnie.






It's OK.  If there's any Sabbath song a punk band can cover, it's Paranoid.  But, of course, doesn't touch the original.  

I tend to prefer metal bands covering punk songs than the other way around.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #29 
You're welcome, t Bedford.  if I remember correctly, the interviewer's response to Carl's question, was along the lines of:

  'punk rock is like a preference for 'Surfin' Safari' over 'Cabinessence'.  (this echoes Larry's comment).

which would mean, the Beach Boy's truest punk, was, wait for it...

    Mike Love! 


and I was never really a punk.


...you know reminiscing about the Clash, and the time I saw them at Bronco Bowl in Oak Cliff, Texas (the at the time, mostly black Dallas suburb near my mostly white one, that was 'dry' or no alcohol).  This was a really terrific place to see a concert as a teen then, seated about 2500?  maybe.  in addition to lots of bowling lanes, the place had batting cages and so forth.  After the Clash played there, I remember Squeeze and David Bowie played with Tin Machine, etc.  Anyway, as you may have guessed, when out of curiosity I googled it, I just found out that it was closed in the 90's, and bought out by Home Depot.  Poor kids of today.  No live music scene, tackle football vilified and would be banned.  t Bedford, does this all explain the popularity of your Ohio-native youtube video-making/merch selling phonems, Jake and Logan Paul-ers?  These are their heroes?  kids today deserve sympathy...(and dare I say it?  they could REALLY use (new?) punk rock to knock those ubiquitous GD devices out of their hands).
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t bedford

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Reply with quote  #30 
And now, Fats Domino has passed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/obituaries/fats-domino-89-one-of-rock-n-rolls-first-stars-is-dead.html

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