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Professor Dewey

Posts: 141
Reply with quote  #46 
Popeye (not the sailor)

Posts: 156
Reply with quote  #47 
Dang Larry you had us all fooled there for a minute.

Anyhoo welcome back!

Darren J. Ray

Posts: 3,431
Reply with quote  #48 
If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it's not a cat. 
Al Forsyth

Posts: 3,661
Reply with quote  #49 
I knew I liked the Professor's voting the past few weeks!  I was going to put an APB out but Darren set us straight on the who voted review. 

I may have to change to Professor Shorthair or Blondie Forsyth sometime.  Lemme think.

A diamond necklace played the pawn...
t bedford

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Posts: 2,004
Reply with quote  #50 
Just a quick opinion about retired songs. Personally, I might love a song, but not so much a cover of the same song. Or I may like a cover, but not the original. Or I may prefer the "Be True to Your School" & "Help Me, Rhonda" singles over the LP cuts (for instance), since they are different recordings (and not simply differences in production...echo, reverb, fade time...of essentially the same recording). We've already allowed live versions as separate contenders (Pet Sounds (live), most recently), altho' I think they had ought to be significantly different from the original.
I'm not a real billionaire, but I play one on TV!
Darren J. Ray

Posts: 3,431
Reply with quote  #51 
Tom, thanks very much, mate. And thanks heaps to you for your detailed weekly contributions (every year). Looking forward to what you post in Season VIII. 

Cindy, thank you very much. It's pleasing to see David get some credit here, too. He's only ever missed one week in seven seasons (when he was ill) and, as you and I (and David) know, the UK is quite often the sticking point for some of these proposed clips, and we often rely on him (and to a lesser degree, Paul, John E and John Potter, who doesn't even vote these days) to help us find clips that will work there. Let's hope the new season gives us a few less copyright headaches, but I wouldn't count on it!

Patricia R, thank you. I look forward to your contributions here again.

Deb, you too are very appreciated. You've been a weekly participant here since we got started. And as a host, you balance every time. It doesn't go unnoticed. [biggrin]

Al, thank YOU very much. I should have mentioned, your Week 28 was a real winner (and one you put A LOT of preparation into). Your Gold won the Gold Play-Off, your Tin won the Tin Play-Off. That's a strong week. 

If someone can post sound clips in this forum that work for everybody, and do not breach copyright, of course we should do it. 

As for how to do that, I'll leave that up to those who are more tech-savvy than I am. Anyone?

Lisa, thank you for all you do here, too. I love reading you each battle. Ladies and gents, this unassuming true believer has NEVER MISSED A WEEK. 

t, you've picked up on my point. 

Are we retiring the 'recordings' or the 'songs'? 

I believe Tom has expressed his opinion in the past that the 'song' should be retired in all its guises. (Tom's post can be found at thread #43 on page 3 of the main post 'Opening Up Pandora's Box', currently found on page 3 of this forum.)

He writes: 

On the matter of "retired" songs (our overall winner from each year's battle playoffs), I would prefer that the "song" (by any artist, or in any version by the same artist) be retired and not eligible to be re-entered in any form in a future battle. 

For example, "Good Vibrations" was our first year's overall winner and has been retired from future competition. Since then, it has never reappeared in a future battle. To me, that's a good thing. We've declared it a winner, so now it sits happily retired in our BOTB hall of fame. I certainly don't feel any desire to see it reappear in a live version, an alternative studio mix version, a bootleg version, etc., performed by the Beach Boys, or by any other artist for that matter (e.g., Todd Rundgren's "Faithful" version). 

There are certainly tons of other great songs by the Beach Boys, individual members of the Beach Boys, or their related side projects, and by other artists, that we shouldn't need to keep going back to revisit variations of songs that have already been our annual winner and retired. If they've won and have been retired, leave them that way, in my opinion. 

For that matter, every year so far in our six prior years of the BOTBs, our overall winner has  always been a Beach Boys song, which is as we might anticipate in this forum. But there is certainly no reason why a great song by another classic artist couldn't become our overall winner for a year. 

That's my two cents regarding the question of annual BOTB winners that have been "retired" from competition. 

I can't recall anyone else expressing their opinion on the matter.

That would imply that a song like The Everly Brothers' version of 'Don't Worry Baby' could no longer be used, as The Beach Boys' version won the Season VI Gold Play-Off. 

(The Everly's version - actually featuring 'The Beach Boys' - never threatened here. It came 4th in its week in Season V, did make the Tin Play-Off and finished in 3rd place.)

It would mean hosts could not use any of the many cover versions of 'God Only Knows' (Andy Williams, Glen Campbell, David Bowie, Michael Buble, et al), because The Beach Boys' version won the Season II Gold Play-Off. 

In Season VII, two versions - Brian's 1995 version from I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and Vince Gill's 2001 version from An All-Star Tribute to Brian Wilson - of 'The Warmth of the Sun' were used. (Brian's version finished 4th in the Preliminary Final, whilst Vince's won its week but didn't make play-offs.)

But it's interesting to note that if either of those cover versions had ultimately won the annual Gold, we could no longer use the original Beach Boys' version (yet to win a year) if we followed this (Tom's) principle. 

'Surf's Up' is now retired. 

Had a cover of it ever surfaced in the Battle? 

Yes, but probably not an ideal example as it was a live recording by Paul Steel, with Scott Bennett, Nelson Bragg & Probyn Gregory (2012); used in Season III. 

It won the Gold that week but didn't score well enough to make play-offs. 

It's another interesting cover of a yearly winner that did not go very far.  

Personally, I'm probably on the fence, but leaning towards giving the green light to genuine covers (as opposed to remixes or live versions by Brian or The Beach Boys).

The reason we retire songs when they win a year is to give other songs a chance of topping a season (as proposed by Tom at the end of Season I and supported by enough of us at the time to lock it in as accepted).

But, as illustrated above, covers of songs that have since been retired - even covers of Beach Boys songs that involved a Beach Boy - never looked likely to take the annual crown.

And I wouldn't mind seeing how certain covers of previous yearly winners were perceived by voters.

But that's just me.
The thoughts of a couple of us is hardly a consensus of opinion!

It would be nice to know what everyone else here thinks.  

Lee Marshall

Posts: 2,378
Reply with quote  #52 
To me...when a song is's least THAT SPECIFIC SONG by the SAME artist.  A version by someone else?  OK...If it stands a chance...if you HAVE to.  But by the same person?  [people?]  No.  To me that's cheating.

Warmth of the Sun would have likely won 2 weeks ago...if it wasn't for the fact that it was that specific performance as opposed to it being the original.  Let's not undermine brilliance by presenting a mere unreasonable facsimile. 

Let's find songs which haven't made it to the 'battles' yet.  There's a wealth of unfarmed terrain still to be tilled.

bonnie bella

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Posts: 2,043
Reply with quote  #53 
Personally, I'm probably on the fence, but leaning towards giving the green light to genuine covers (as opposed to remixes or live versions by Brian or The Beach Boys). 

I agree with this.  If it's a "real" cover, there should be room to have it again.  "Hallelujah" comes to mind.  Somebody else might want to use a different version.  One-off live performances and things like that shouldn't count as another version of the song, but another artist's proper recording might be quite different.

In saying that, it could muddy the waters a little, and as Lee said, we have a plethora of songs out there to use.  


Clowns divorce: custardy battle.     Simon Munnery

paul g adsett

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Posts: 1,404
Reply with quote  #54 
may i elucidat(*) into proceedings when deciding.
if alternative versions are allowed to be used within the competition,
then either version is there in the running.
or not.
like schrödinger's cat, it might be alive and kicking
or, paws up on the floor dead in the box.
but, until you open the box, you won't know whether or not it has survived.
similarly, if you're chasing an electron, you might be able to tell where it is or at what speed it is travelling.
however, the moment you precisely pinpoint the one factor,
you cannot accurately know the other.

* 'h' being planck's constant just introduce into the calculations
and albert's your uncle...
glad to be of service.

Al Forsyth

Posts: 3,661
Reply with quote  #55 
Ah, but Paul, Planck wasn't constant with his equilibrium, was he?   And on that constant, if a Schrödinger's cat goes into a box, we would hope that he or she would flourish. To clarify this "debate" is to whether a "cover version" or other version of a retired song can show it's self in the competition again, correct?  So we are saying now that the retired songs are in fact, retired from coming up to compete again.

I still want to see about having sound clips come in to compete if the YouTube playing field isn't level anymore.  Theory of relativity? 

D@rn that Schrödinger for giving a mental image to a physics question!

A diamond necklace played the pawn...
Darren J. Ray

Posts: 3,431
Reply with quote  #56 
Thanks for your input, Lee. 

Also, 'The Warmth of the Sun' (the original) has competed against 'Surf's Up' (from Surf's Up) in the past. 

It was in the Ultimate Battle, to commemorate five full seasons. 

The three annual medallists from each year played off. ('The Warmth of the Sun' had qualified twice; hence, only the 14 songs. 

The results were (from 28 voters): 

1. God Only Knows (The Beach Boys - 1966) (Season II Gold - Cynthia D. Hood) (six 1st places*) - 318.5

2. Good Vibrations (The Beach Boys - 1966) (Season I Gold - Cynthia D Hood) (nine 1st places++) - 305

3. Wouldn’t It Be Nice (The Beach Boys - 1966) (Season III Gold - Cindy Hood) (two 1st places+) - 257.5

4. California Girls (The Beach Boys - 1965) (Season III Bronze - Kevin Witts) (nil 1st places) - 231

5. Don’t Worry Baby (The Beach Boys - 1964) (Season III Silver - Teenage Symphony) (two 1st places) - 221

6. Surf’s Up (The Beach Boys - 1971) (Season II Silver - Cynthia D Hood) (four 1st places*) - 220

7. Surfer Girl (The Beach Boys - 1963) (Season IV Gold - Jo McGuire) (two 1st places) - 191

8. I Get Around (The Beach Boys - 1964) (Season V Gold - bonnie bella) (two 1st places) - 186.5

9. The Warmth of the Sun (The Beach Boys - 1964) (Season I Silver - Tom Tobben; Season V Silver - Jo McGuire) (one 1stplace) - 186

10. In My Life (The Beatles - 1965) (Season V Bronze - Tom Tobben) (two 1st places*) - 185

11. Heroes & Villains (The Beach Boys - 1967) (Season I Bronze - t Bedford) (two 1st places+) - 183.5

12. Penny Lane (The Beatles - 1967) (Season IV Silver - Al Forsyth) (nil 1st places) - 177

13. Fun, Fun, Fun (The Beach Boys - 1964) (Season IV Bronze - Kevin Witts) (nil 1st places) - 144.5

14. The Little Girl I Once Knew (The Beach Boys - 1965) (Season II Bronze - Verden McCutcheon) (nil 1st places) - 133.5

* includes a three-way tie for 1st place
+ includes a two-way tie for 1st place
++ includes two two-way ties for 1st place


So 'Surf's Up' took the points from 'The Warmth of the Sun' in their only battle. 

bonnie, thanks for your input. 

I don't think 'Hallelujah' will ever win a Gold Play-Off. (The k. d. lang version finished 5th in the Silver Play-Off. It polarised. From 20 voters, five put it in their Top 3. Eight put it in their bottom 3.) 

Thanks, Paul and Al. 

Yes, the question remains - should cover versions of retired 'songs' be allowed?

And if anyone can put sound clips on this forum that 1) work for everyone, and 2) don't infringe copyright, let's do it.

We used to have a similar thing in Grooveshark before it was closed down due to copyright issues.
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