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kds

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
no one needs me to say 'you're okay'.  but if it helps, Bugs is cool with me.

btw, nice that Lee agrees with me about 'Friends'.  I actually feel a similar spirit from Brian in "Love You" that I did on "Friends."  It's like Brando standing up at the end of 'On the Waterfront' and saying, 'not only can I still lead you, but I can make a great album, too!'  

If I can put myself into Lee's mind for a second (and I know, I know, he's going to say, get out my mind, stupid John B!, but be that as it may), he doesn't like "Love You" because it's so rough and damaged sounding, while 'Friends' was super clear, clean, and musically skilled sounding.  Yet, this is a reason--maybe we can pull her back?--that Cretan Welsh liked "Love You" so much.  much more negative abuse and human misery later, and Brian still came out on top.  The 'ragged' "Love You" was a bleep you to life's hardships--a very nice bleep you though, presented with measured love back as return. 



Lee and I tend to see eye to eye on our opinions on the Love You album.  

From my point of view, I just think the songwriting on Friends is far superior.  The harmonies on tracks like the title track and Wake the World are far superior in my opinion.  Dennis has two great contributions with Little Bird and Be Still.  Just off the top of my head.  

To me the Wild Honey and Friends album are steps forward (even if most of the record buyers in the US has turned their back on the Boys by then), while 15 Big Ones and Love You were steps backward. 
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John B

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Reply with quote  #32 
See, I fear that this disagreement is a major reason that The Paley Sessions did not come out.!

(which would have been right after about the worst hardships of all, with a pretend psychiatrist)

On one hand, we all might have agreed, no, we would have all agreed about the greatness of that album, (that would have had the two Tony Asher songs "This Isn't Love" and "Everything I Need" as well as "You're Still a Mystery to Me"), but only if it was "cleaned" up to "Friends" surface beauty.  If too many rough edges were left...as I think Bugs believes (?), then it would be too much like "Love You" for you guys to appreciate. 

But really, I'm telling you guys, Brian was INSPIRED, and everyone else, you should all have a copy of the 'Lost/Wilson/Paley Sessions', which with 'Smile' released, is now Brian's #1 most "What if" album.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
See, I fear that this disagreement is a major reason that The Paley Sessions did not come out.!

(which would have been right after about the worst hardships of all, with a pretend psychiatrist)

On one hand, we all might have agreed, no, we would have all agreed about the greatness of that album, (that would have had the two Tony Asher songs "This Isn't Love" and "Everything I Need" as well as "You're Still a Mystery to Me"), but only if it was "cleaned" up to "Friends" surface beauty.  If too many rough edges were left...as I think Bugs believes (?), then it would be too much like "Love You" for you guys to appreciate. 

But really, I'm telling you guys, Brian was INSPIRED, and everyone else, you should all have a copy of the 'Lost/Wilson/Paley Sessions', which with 'Smile' released, is now Brian's #1 most "What if" album.


To be, it's really not a question of how "clean" the songs sound.  I just don't think the songwriting on Love You is that good, and the production doesn't help.  

I'd heard very little of the Paley sessions from the mid 1990s, but what I've heard, I really liked.  I'm hoping for a proper release one day, but I'm not holding my breath.  
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Lee Marshall

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Reply with quote  #34 
The songs on Love You are 3rd rate/2nd grade little 'tuneages' with simple Simon met a pie man going to the fair lyrics.  The production is chalk-full of that entirely forgettable 80s synth 'poop'.  The singing and arrangements are assuredly "not his best".  Brian was either in no shape to or, in fact, didn't truly want to record that record.

It sounds like a further and unsuccessful exercise to try and introduce Brian back into the concepts of songwriting, record making and singin'.  The thing which always made Brian's songs and recordings exceptional were the elements of imagination and instinct he brought to the piano, the microphone and the mixing board.  Those ingredients didn't make the trip here.

15 Bigguns and Love You marked the end of the group as a creative force to be reckoned with.  Once the 'Loves' took over the group was severely deWilsonafied.  By comparison ...they went from being a cork bouncing on the ocean to just being a rubber duck sitting half submerged in a plastic wading pool.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Marshall
The songs on Love You are 3rd rate/2nd grade little 'tuneages' with simple Simon met a pie man going to the fair lyrics.  The production is chalk-full of that entirely forgettable 80s synth 'poop'.  The singing and arrangements are assuredly "not his best".  Brian was either in no shape to or, in fact, didn't truly want to record that record.

It sounds like a further and unsuccessful exercise to try and introduce Brian back into the concepts of songwriting, record making and singin'.  The thing which always made Brian's songs and recordings exceptional were the elements of imagination and instinct he brought to the piano, the microphone and the mixing board.  Those ingredients didn't make the trip here.

15 Bigguns and Love You marked the end of the group as a creative force to be reckoned with.  Once the 'Loves' took over the group was severely deWilsonafied.  By comparison ...they went from being a cork bouncing on the ocean to just being a rubber duck sitting half submerged in a plastic wading pool.


Spoken better than I could have.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #36 
How about we ask Wendy and Carnie (or Debbie KL or Cretan W, or Mike Stipe, or Peter Buck, or Patti Smith, or Alex Chilton, etc.) what they thought of the album, and go with that?
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kds

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
How about we ask Wendy and Carnie (or Debbie KL or Cretan W, or Mike Stipe, or Peter Buck, or Patti Smith, or Alex Chilton, etc.) what they thought of the album, and go with that?


They're entitled to their opinion.  Doesn't mean Lee and I need to share it though.  
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Cretanwelsh

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Reply with quote  #38 
I like your passion about Love You, Lee. But 80s synths...?

To answer the points you've raised: Lee, Love You is all arias and opuses. & the 'songwriting is great', kds.

But banalities aside, it's controversial mainly for its lyrics and overall production (the Moog arrangements, ragged voices, etc. ) They either mean something to you or they don't. If they don't, they don't. Feel free to plod through C&TPST instead.

For what it's worth, it means more to me than Friends or Smile or any other Beach Boys album except PetSounds and -some days- Today!

There it is!

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John B

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Reply with quote  #39 
hmmm.  a disputed outcome.  How can we resolve this?

okay, I got an idea. 

Let's ask the creator, Mr. Brian Wilson, how does he judge "Love You".  Does he believe that he communicated his thoughts and emotions and musical ideas successfully ?  Did the end result match up well with his envisioned concept and efforts?  How well?  Would he place this album way up high among his releases or way down low? 

I'll go with what Brian thinks.

and those who oppose him?   They're smarter than a genius? 

yeah...good luck with that. 
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bonnie bella

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Reply with quote  #40 
I'd have never put money on a Song of the Week thread making three pages and rising ...







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Clowns divorce: custardy battle.     Simon Munnery

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Lee Marshall

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Reply with quote  #41 
Cool.  I'm happy that some really 'dig' Love You.  I don't hear it.  Lord knows I've tried...and failed...to find redemption contained there-in.  That doesn't make those who did any the lesser for it.  Good for you.  I still wonder if it's an in retrospect or after the fact phenomenon.  'Cause in order?  It made no earthly sense to me.  But then neither, either did Smiley Smile.

That said I am also pit-deep in ecstasy that others 'get' and live for Pet Sounds, Wild Honey, Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surfs Up, Carl and the Passions and Holland with a significant tip of the hat to the ongoing growth and unveiling of the creative force and excellence generated by Little Deuce Coupe, All Summer Long, Today and Summer Days [and Summer Nights], and to a lesser extent, due to some glaring flaws, Shut Down Vol II, That's Why Gawd Made the Radio, and maybe to a teenie degree,  Keepin' the Summer ALIVE.  AND...there are still some very good songs on their other l.p.s as well.  [None of those albums anywhere near as good as Pacific Ocean Blue or Brian Wilson...but I digress.]

All and all...it's a pretty darned impressive body of work and very difficult for most to even begin to match.

Zat's why we're here.
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Lee Marshall

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
hmmm.  a disputed outcome.  How can we resolve this?

okay, I got an idea. 

Let's ask the creator, Mr. Brian Wilson, how does he judge "Love You".  Does he believe that he communicated his thoughts and emotions and musical ideas successfully ?  Did the end result match up well with his envisioned concept and efforts?  How well?  Would he place this album way up high among his releases or way down low? 

I'll go with what Brian thinks.

and those who oppose him?   They're smarter than a genius? 

yeah...good luck with that. 


I would be interested to know what he honestly thinks about it now...now while he is is far better control of his thoughts and feelings, his emotions and his more clearly honed take on what it was like to be Brian Wilson through the difficult days.

I ain't gonna get hoodwinked into accepting quotes from the days when Brian answered questions to either try and provide you with what he thought you wanted to hear or, more often than not, to merely make you go away.
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John B

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Reply with quote  #43 
Okay, that's settled, we have an agreement.  (no, not that there are people who live for 'Carl & the Passions so tough...that's still in dispute', but that other thing about letting nowadays Brian have the last word on "Love You."

Moderators?  Can you help me?   There's this scene (with Marshall McLuhan) in 'Annie Hall' I'd like to emulate..
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John B

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Reply with quote  #44 
you know, back to topic, when the 'moon glows on the fallen snow', it IS very pretty.
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Lee Marshall

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Reply with quote  #45 
Ya sure...let's talk about snow in August. [biggrin] 
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