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Cretanwelsh

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Marshall
Cretanwelsh...You might be able to understand that I would like, very much, to be able to have that conversation regarding the Love You release with you or any number of Brian Wilson/Beach Boy fans who have somehow managed to find value contained therein.  I, sadly, cannot participate in such a discussion.  I have no nuggets to contribute on behalf of that specific release.  The entire album either goes over my head or under my chin...one or the other.

I truly am unable to name one song on the album that I enjoy, like, or that I would include on a compilation of any kind...at least not one that I would listen to after  assembling the recordings in any kind of usable file.

Even on Smiley Smile and Summer in Pair of Dice I can find something worthy of my valuable listening time.  [over and above Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains.]  Even on all of the so/so lps released after 1973 up until SIP I can find gems worthy of being included as valuable assets to the entire Beach Boys body of work...collectively or [except for ML] individually.  All albums released prior to Love You, without exception, range from 'O.K.' to outstanding.  [except imho for S.S.]

If I could I would sing the praises of Love You but it wouldn't be honest or true for me to do that.  I try to suggest that there is a song of value on the album...and although there ARE some moments in a few of the songs which sparkle and work...for the most part I am only being agreeable if I tip my hat to any specific song on THAT 1 album.

I don't get it.  I don't hear it.  I own it on both vinyl and on C.D.  I've listened to it all the way through many times.  I've listened to it one side at a time.  I listened to the few songs from it contained on the Made In California package.  Unfortunately for me there is nothing there.  That dates back to when I first bought it and heard it in the spring of 1977 up until the other day when I listened to the track supplied by Mary for the 'song of the week'.

I have never stopped trying to give Love You its due.  So far...it has yet to give me reason to.



Lee perhaps you can understand that I'm not concerned in the slightest whether you get Love You or not. I'm just responding to criticisms on a fan forum of an record I happen to enjoy.

To be fair some of the criticism you have made - the schoolboy doggerel rhymes and broken music-box arrangements- have a point and any admirer of Love You has to reckon with them. My complaint is only with the silly trollish abuse you lard them with, every single time, derailing any other discussion of the album. It's hypocritical because far more puerile than anything on the record you are criticising for being puerile - not to mention how you yourself would you react were a poster here trolling on Pet Sounds or Sunflower or Holland that way every time those albums came up.




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Lee Marshall

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Reply with quote  #17 
Really?  So then...if I agree with you it's a conversation?  If I disagree it's trolling?  I see.  So I should just stay away from all threads where I am not in agreement with the O.P.?

Good to know.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Marshall
Really?  So then...if I agree with you it's a conversation?  If I disagree it's trolling?  I see.  So I should just stay away from all threads where I am not in agreement with the O.P.?

Good to know.


I have to say that the word "troll" have been thrown around quite a bit on this board recently.  I can't say I understand how a difference of opinion (especially when you're talking about the diverse 50+ year catalog of a music legend) constitutes trolling.  

There are people on BB boards who don't like the early surf / car songs.  Some don't care for Smiley Smile.  Some think the early 70s albums are a tad overrated.  Some don't like Love You.  Some don't think there's any merit to any BB albums in the late 1970s.  Some think TWGMTR is dull and overproduced.  So what?  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #19 
I am no expert on the subject of 'trolling' but I absolutely feel that it is one of the most important and timely words of our current times.  After all, some people believe we have a troll for U.S. president.  2 of my 3 sons are in Jr. High, or middle school, and you should listen to them.  J-Paul with AIDS is a big one.  Wha?  goes I.  son, w/AIDS is not an insult, it's a terrible disease to the immune system that makes even a common cold life-threatening.  and I am told, 'no, people who say that now, aren't thinking of the disease.'   again, I say 'wha?'

to me, C.W., other than the usual thing she says about 'all art being subjective', e.g., either your cup of tea or not your cup of tea, is TOO conciliatory to Lee.  I like the lyrics to 'Love You'.  doggerel and school boy?   to me, he was trying to tell his daughters he was not entirely absent as he seemed and he loved them SO much.  that's what I got out of it.  I hear a lot of childless people now, and many of them are over the top animal rights firsters, you know, you've seen them, they have bumper stickers that say things like "my dog is smarter than your 3 year-old" and of course it's not true.  How many words does your effing dog speak?  Non-breeding dog firsters to me are the new smokers.  Like smokers use to be--before they fell out of favor with political correctness and hipdom police.  you know, 'the world is their trashcan'?  (so they flipped their butts literally and figuratively anywhere they pleased, including the beach).  Well, now, the childless dog-firsters take their stupid mutts into grocery stores and their 'emotional support animals' onto airplanes.  Up goes their darling's back leg to mark their territory.  Ain't that sweet?  every high school and football field has a sign now: "no dogs"... that they completely ignore.  They really and truly believe their dogs are better than your children.  So...my football playing kids have to dodge dog poop from these unleashed lovelies. 

"Love You" was and is not everyones' cup of tea, and respectfully, it IS trolled by Lee, because it could be the Beach Boys most innocent/child-first album.  It is emphatically and unapologetically NOT Jack Lieley approved.  Now, not saying he is one, but to the childless dog-firsters out there, due to its child-influenced lyrics,  "Love You" is a politically incorrect hate crime...  But I say if it made and continues to make Led Zep fans moan, good for Brian.!

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kds

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
I am no expert on the subject of 'trolling' but I absolutely feel that it is one of the most important and timely words of our current times.  After all, some people believe we have a troll for U.S. president.  2 of my 3 sons are in Jr. High, or middle school, and you should listen to them.  J-Paul with AIDS is a big one.  Wha?  goes I.  son, w/AIDS is not an insult, it's a terrible disease to the immune system that makes even a common cold life-threatening.  and I am told, 'no, people who say that now, aren't thinking of the disease.'   again, I say 'wha?'

to me, C.W., other than the usual thing she says about 'all art being subjective', e.g., either your cup of tea or not your cup of tea, is TOO conciliatory to Lee.  I like the lyrics to 'Love You'.  doggerel and school boy?   to me, he was trying to tell his daughters he was not entirely absent as he seemed and he loved them SO much.  that's what I got out of it.  I hear a lot of childless people now, and many of them are over the top animal rights firsters, you know, you've seen them, they have bumper stickers that say things like "my dog is smarter than your 3 year-old" and of course it's not true.  How many words does your effing dog speak?  Non-breeding dog firsters to me are the new smokers.  Like smokers use to be--before they fell out of favor with political correctness and hipdom.  you know, 'the world is their trashcan'?  (so they flipped their butts literally and figuratively anywhere they pleased, including the beach).  Well, now, the childless dog-firsters take their stupid mutts into grocery stores and their 'emotional support animals' onto airplanes.  Up goes their darling's back leg to mark their territory.  Ain't that sweet?  every high school and football field has a sign now: "no dogs"... that they completely ignore.  They really and truly believe their dogs are better than your children.  So...my football playing kids have to dodge dog poop from these unleashed lovelies. 

"Love You" was and is not everyones' cup of tea, and respectfully, it IS trolled by Lee, because it could be the Beach Boys most innocent/child-first album.  Now, not saying he is one, but to the childless dog-firsters out there, due to its child-influenced lyrics,  "Love You" is a politically incorrect hate crime...  But I say if it made and continues to make Led Zep fans moan, good for Brian.!



John, basically trolling refers to the act of purposely posting something that you know will upset other posters and derail a conversation. 

Lee's posts about his opinions on Love You, don't constitute as trolling to me because he's stated many times that he was a bigger fan of the early 70s material, and didn't like the hard left that the Boys took musically.  

Just as you've stated clearly why you're not a fan of albums like Holland.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #21 
I would argue that it is not equal.  It's okay to hate children now if stated by a blogging person who has facial hair.    Unfortunately, to my displeasure, hippies still=hip and young children =unhip.  right? 

those guys are still stomping on my pet crawfish, kds!  (did we ever ...uh, talk about the movie, 'Wild in the Streets'?   Richard Pryor was in that movie.  No he really WAS. : )
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kds

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
I would argue that it is not equal.  It's okay to hate children now if stated by a blogging person who has facial hair.    Unfortunately, to my displeasure, hippies still=hip and young children =unhip.  right?


I think you're taking the debate over the merits of an album that's well known for being polarizing among the fanbase to weird, personal levels.  

Disliking Love You has absolutely nothing to do with liking / disliking children.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #23 
'Holland' had a REALLY good little extra record on it, kds.  It was a terrible tale about a young prince who had a magic radio that played beautiful songs.  But then one day, the Prince was highly disrespected by his brothers and cousin, and they took the magic radio away from him.  But try as they might, no magical music would come out anymore.

looking back at Lee's post about ALL the terrific solo records being better than 'Love You'...even that one, Lee,? where Mike wears a Dodger cap on the front ?   Really?   what grabbed you there?   Mike's 3rd or 4th history lesson called "Looking Back with Love" or was it his reggae cover of the Dave Clark V song "Over & Over"?   
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kds

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
'Holland' had a REALLY good little extra record on it, kds.  It was a terrible tale about a young prince who had a magic radio that played beautiful songs.  But then one day, the Prince was highly disrespected by his brothers and cousin, and they took the magic radio away from him.  But try as they might, no magical music would come out anymore.

looking back at Lee's post about ALL the terrific solo records being better than 'Love You'...even that one, Lee,? where Mike wears a Dodger cap on the front ?   Really?   what grabbed you there?   Mike's 3rd or 4th history lesson called "Looking Back with Love" or was it his reggae cover of the Dave Clark V song "Over & Over"?   


I can't say that I'm a fan of the Mt. Vernon EP.  Much like Love You, I've tried to listen to it many times, but it doesn't do much for me.  I can see why The Beach Boys were hesitant to put it on the album proper. 
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John B

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Reply with quote  #25 
I know I know, kds, you can 'see why' "the Beach Boys" would have had a right to decide what goes on a Beach Boys album or not, in the same way that you can 'see why' "The Beach Boys" can tour without a single Wilson or Jardine.  I canNOT see why, in either case, so we respectfully disagree on that.  Of course, in retrospect, if you are right, then Brian should likely have been making solo records ever since 1966 and thereafter. 
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kds

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
I know I know, kds, you can 'see why' "the Beach Boys" would have had a right to decide what goes on a Beach Boys album or not, in the same way that you can 'see why' "The Beach Boys" can tour without a single Wilson or Jardine.  I canNOT see why, in either case, so we respectfully disagree on that.  Of course, in retrospect, if you are right, then Brian should likely have been making solo records ever since 1966 and thereafter. 


I just don't think Mt. Vernon jibes with the rest of the Holland album.  I think it was Carl who made the choice to have it issued as an EP with the album.  

I don't necessarily think that Brian should've went solo after 1966, especially since the albums from 67-71 have a lot of great contributions from Brian.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #27 
Let's put it this way.

Grateful Dead fans think Bob W. is a really great guy.  But when he played without Jerry, he would not be azz enough to call his band the Grateful Dead.   Keith Richard plays live sometimes without Mick, but he doesn't call himself the Rolling Stones.  I am not arguing that Mike should be prohibited from doing his oldies show at state fairs and the like, or that Carl and Jack Lieley not have albums.  I am instead arguing that if Brian wanted something on a Beach Boys album, it should have gone on, exactly as he wanted it to go.   That is my position.

There has been a grand unreleased songs catalogue through the years beginning with 'Sunflower' in which a multitude of great songs written by Brian were rejected for 'Boys' albums.   This was worse than an outrage--it should have been criminal.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
Let's put it this way.

Grateful Dead fans think Bob W. is a really great guy.  But when he played without Jerry, he would not be azz enough to call his band the Grateful Dead.   Keith Richard plays live sometimes without Mick, but he doesn't call himself the Rolling Stones.  I am not arguing that Mike should be prohibited from doing his oldies show at state fairs and the like, or that Carl and Jack Lieley not have albums.  I am instead arguing that if Brian wanted something on a Beach Boys album, it should have gone on, exactly as he wanted it to go.   That is my position.

There has been a grand unreleased songs catalogue through the years beginning with 'Sunflower' in which a multitude of great songs written by Brian were rejected for 'Boys' albums.   This was worse than an outrage--it should have been criminal.


That's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion.   We've hashed out the Mike Love touring as the Beach Boys thing enough, and I'd rather keep this thread music based.  

Dennis also had a fair share of great tracks left off BB albums.  While the Boys did some great things under Jack Rieley, I'll admit, there were also a lot of questionable decisions (ie. putting Take a Load Off Your Feet on the Surf's Up album).  Heck, Good Time would've sounded a lot better on Surf's Up than Take a Load Off Your Feet. 


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Cretanwelsh

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Posts: 148
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kds


I have to say that the word "troll" have been thrown around quite a bit on this board recently.  I can't say I understand how a difference of opinion (especially when you're talking about the diverse 50+ year catalog of a music legend) constitutes trolling.  

  



kds: okay, ‘trollish’ was a poor choice of words. Let me correct that to ‘puerile name-calling’ instead. Whatever you call it, it isn’t criticism.

True criticism is always welcome -it renews the excitement of art. For instance I’d love to hear your criticism of the music of Love You, beyond ‘don’t like it’. You know -articulate what you don’t like about it. Because if it really ‘just does nothing’ for you, you expend a hell of lot of time and energy saying merely that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John B


to me, C.W., other than the usual thing she says about 'all art being subjective', e.g., either your cup of tea or not your cup of tea, is TOO conciliatory to Lee.  I like the lyrics to 'Love You'.  doggerel and school boy?   to me, he was trying to tell his daughters he was not entirely absent as he seemed and he loved them SO much.  that's what I got out of it. 




I think the lyrics (& they are sometimes doggerel, whatever the reason), the (sometimes) comical arrangements, that ravaged voice etc. all tie into the unity of the whole thing and its Love You-ness.

And I really get your point especially about ‘I Wanna Pick You Up’ -that implicit but I can’t is a heartbreaker.



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kds

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretanwelsh



kds: okay, ‘trollish’ was a poor choice of words. Let me correct that to ‘puerile name-calling’ instead. Whatever you call it, it isn’t criticism.

True criticism is always welcome -it renews the excitement of art. For instance I’d love to hear your criticism of the music of Love You, beyond ‘don’t like it’. You know -articulate what you don’t like about it. Because if it really ‘just does nothing’ for you, you expend a hell of lot of time and energy saying merely that.






I think the lyrics (& they are sometimes doggerel, whatever the reason), the (sometimes) comical arrangements, that ravaged voice etc. all tie into the unity of the whole thing and its Love You-ness.

And I really get your point especially about ‘I Wanna Pick You Up’ -that implicit but I can’t is a heartbreaker.





I thought I've stated this before, but I don't find the melodies, arrangements, or much of singing on the Love You album to be too pleasing to my ear.  

I think it's a far cry from the Beach Boys peak years of 62-73.

But I also know that many who tend to go for the Love You album tend to also be fans of punk, indie, alternative, new wave, etc music, where as, with a couple of exceptions, I tend to stay away.  
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