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Cretanwelsh

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Reply with quote  #31 

But all I'm trying to say is if it is just 'not pleasing' to you, why bother so often with threads about it. Especially if that's really all you have to offer about it, either good or bad.

Myself I never really comment on any post-Adult Child BBs stuff except maybe TWGMTR, because to me -it's just not much. Not interested.

I think there is something unsaid in the criticisms of Love You -the distaste is real but it's just not capable of reflection. That interests me.
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John B

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Reply with quote  #32 
I agree that it does not seem fair that the most different sounding album should be criticized on THAT basis--(it's originality) that it does not sound like any other Brian record.  Who made the doggone rule that they all had to sound the same?  the unanswered question by CW remains.  Please lie down on the couch and relax, we were talking about 'Love You' when we ran out of time the last appointment.  So, you indicated that it sounded very different than the other Brian records.  and this makes you feel ...so very angry, why, again?  

...but it is self-knowledge at least to some degree for kds to confess that he does not like punk, new wave, indie, alternative or things that do not sound pleasant to his ears.
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John B

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Reply with quote  #33 
There's going to be some 9-inch nails fan that is going to point out that they like music that does not sound pleasant to their ears.  My kids tell me that Youtube comments are the trolls of all-time, but there was this one about the Brian demo of "Still I Dream Of it" (not the cleaned up version), and his voice 'sounding like tearing paper'.   This is going to be a style and sensibilities disagreement we cannot reconcile probably, but there can be emotional power and poetry in visceral human emotions, and especially when they are suffering but continuing to persevere and ultimately, like "Love You", they win.   
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Cretanwelsh

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
Please lie down on the couch and relax, we were talking about 'Love You' when we ran out of time the last appointment.


Made me laugh! 'Hmmmm. Interesting. Very interesting....'

I probably don't see Love You as quite as roundly triumphant as you do, JohnB. I think there's a sarcasm there, a bitter tang that's not to everyone's taste. (Fair enough). But I know you're a Side 2 guy (I think side 2 has the best songs, but as part of a whole, you need to go through the comedy of Side 1 for it to fully work its magic). I agree with you on the expressive rawness thing but that ravaged voice is consciously if authentically so.

The album was the product of an extraordinary set of circumstances - the success of Endless Summer, Brian is Back, his own domestic and therapeutic situation, the personal and political problems within the band, contractual requirements etc. - that, somehow, left Brian free in the studio for the first time since the sixties. It's like a parody of the alignment of the creative and the commercial that had characterised the Beach Boys heyday. And out of it he managed to produce a record that both mocks the expectations he was labouring under and conveys, movingly, how it felt to be in the situation he was in.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretanwelsh

But all I'm trying to say is if it is just 'not pleasing' to you, why bother so often with threads about it. Especially if that's really all you have to offer about it, either good or bad.

Myself I never really comment on any post-Adult Child BBs stuff except maybe TWGMTR, because to me -it's just not much. Not interested.

I think there is something unsaid in the criticisms of Love You -the distaste is real but it's just not capable of reflection. That interests me.


I commented because it's a Song of the Week thread, and I'm commenting on my opinions of the song.  

What exactly do you think is unsaid in the criticism of Love You?  Do you think it's something beyond just not liking the album?  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #36 
well, kds, what do YOU think, ...and how does that make you feel?
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kds

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
well, kds, what do YOU think, ...and how does that make you feel?


How does what make me feel?  

The interference that there is something sinister behind disliking Love You?  That's what it sounds like to me.  If I'm wrong CW, I apologize.  If I'm right, then that's some Brianista BS.  
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John B

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Reply with quote  #38 
?

I'm just funnin with you, kds. 

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kds

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
?

I'm just funnin with you, kds. 



Fair enough.  

I was referring to this from CW

"I think there is something unsaid in the criticisms of Love You -the distaste is real but it's just not capable of reflection. That interests me."
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John B

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Reply with quote  #40 
Okay, CW is a nicer person than me, she's still offering an olive branch, needlessly, I feel, to respect Lee and kds.   I dissent.  I've heard that view before: Brian was forced against his will into producing 'Love You', back on the ultra-demanding leader track before he was ready...so he 'revenged' those doggone beach boys, with lines like 'going to school isn't my fondest desire.'   Well, to me, the line works because that's how people that age really think and talk without the "benefit" of nostalgic revisionism.  and RS mag asserted that 'wow oh my oh gosh oh gee' was a line that 'only Brian Wilson would even try to get away with.'  whatever, never mind.   But then somewhere during the project, his lyrics became less perfunctory as he found his 'salvation' on Side 2.   I understand the point, I just don't share it, because I don't hear or feel bitterness in "Love You."  You see he really DID love Phil Spector.  He really DID love the Rollerskating Child.  He really DID go honkin down the highway, trying to get past those cars, when he was in a hurry.  'Johnny Carson'?  Who can say that he wasn't 'a real live wire'?  Not I.  Those are all understandable lyrics, much better to me than say those ones Led Zep wrote about Alistaire Crowley.
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kds

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Reply with quote  #41 
I've heard that story too, and I don't put any stock in it.  


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John B

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Reply with quote  #42 
The one concession I will make is like CW said before, the structure of 'Love You' came out more like "Today!" than it did "Pet Sounds."  Brian was likely thinking, 'really?  they're really going to let me produce an album again?  well, I can't possibly get away with another "Pet Sounds" I don't wanna go through all that resistance and heartache again.  So, what's a classic Beach Boys album?  Summer Days or Today, right?  So, I'll go with 'Today.'  Side 1 will be the sociological superiority/what people do for fun side--What I "Love" like that.  this is where the 'Fun, Fun, Fun's and 'I Get Arounds' use to go.  Side 2, I can get more personal, more 'real'.  this is where the 'In My Rooms' go.   

So, I see Side 1 of 'Love You' being about 50-75% from personal Brian and Side 2 as '100' %. 

Haters didn't feel 'Love You' Brian was as 'hip' on Side 1 as he had been as a 20-something in the early 1960's.  They were embarrassed that he wrote songs like this in his 30's.   I couldn't care less...
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Cretanwelsh

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kds


How does what make me feel?  

The interference that there is something sinister behind disliking Love You?  That's what it sounds like to me.  If I'm wrong CW, I apologize.  If I'm right, then that's some Brianista BS.  


Kds No need to apologise in the least. I emphatically don’t think there is anything sinister in disliking Love You. I don’t even know what that ‘sinister thing’ might be. However, I do think that some of the strong antipathy to it tends to be inarticulate and that is interesting to me because perhaps it says something about the album. I completely exclude from that criticism of the lyrics or the production (in the widest sense) which invite very understandable criticisms that any defender of the record must contend with. But you specifically said that, as well as the production, you disliked the music of Love You. Nothing of course wrong with that, either, but I was just trying to find out what kind of ‘not liking’ it was. Describe it. I am assuming here that it’s not just the ‘it does nothing for me’ kind (which also would be in itself absolutely fair enough) since if that were so your prolific involvement in every discussion of the record, wherever it springs up, would seem strange, considering how little you would have to say about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John B
Okay, CW is a nicer person than me, she's still offering an olive branch, needlessly, I feel, to respect Lee and kds.   I dissent.  I've heard that view before: Brian was forced against his will into producing 'Love You', back on the ultra-demanding leader track before he was ready...so he 'revenged' those doggone beach boys, with lines like 'going to school isn't my fondest desire.'   Well, to me, the line works because that's how people that age really think and talk without the "benefit" of nostalgic revisionism.
   


No olive branch John, my own view is somewhere in between. I don’t believe Brian was horse-whipped into fumbling through ‘Twinkle Twinkle Little Star’ backwards on a Moog, whilst bawling ‘Solar System brings us wisdom’ as some seem to think. But nor do I see him as some Rousseauian noble savage, encircled by cynicism, yet singing-out simple warm-hearted truths from his big innocent heart.

That whole period of creativity sprang out of Landy’s first intervention, when he was directly tasked with getting Brian fit to make music again. At that point Brian wasn’t keen on going to work because the whole process -politics, personalities etc.- had become incredibly painful for him. But then circumstances conspired to give him a largely free-hand in the studio and somewhere along the line he had his vision of the record that would become Love You. He turned ‘Brian is back’ on its head by painting a portrait of himself as he really was in 1977, warts and all. Too right it’s his truth – the conscious, ironic truth of a born artist. Because funnily enough Brian knew himself, probably better than anyone, that since the glory days something awful had happened to him.

Also don’t get the impression that in calling Side 1 comedy I’m in any way disparaging it.  Some of the greatest art ever made is comedy. Even if side 2 is the greater half, there’s not much in it. I love most how they work together.

And John we agree that these lines are not doggerel

Going to school isn't my fondest desire
But sittin' in class you set my soul on fire

Add music and that's William Blake as a 1950s Amercian teenager!











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kds

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretanwelsh


Kds No need to apologise in the least. I emphatically don’t think there is anything sinister in disliking Love You. I don’t even know what that ‘sinister thing’ might be. However, I do think that some of the strong antipathy to it tends to be inarticulate and that is interesting to me because perhaps it says something about the album. I completely exclude from that criticism of the lyrics or the production (in the widest sense) which invite very understandable criticisms that any defender of the record must contend with. But you specifically said that, as well as the production, you disliked the music of Love You. Nothing of course wrong with that, either, but I was just trying to find out what kind of ‘not liking’ it was. Describe it. I am assuming here that it’s not just the ‘it does nothing for me’ kind (which also would be in itself absolutely fair enough) since if that were so your prolific involvement in every discussion of the record, wherever it springs up, would seem strange, considering how little you would have to say about it.





I'm glad you didn't think I had some sort of hidden agenda.  

I'd read things here in the past like "if you don't get Love You, you don't get Brian Wilson" and that kind of crap.  

Since you're a fan of the album, I don't think I'd be able to accurately put into words why I don't like the Love You album.  No more than you'll ever be able to convince me that it's a good album.  Like I've said before, I don't think the melodies are that good.  For a band that's known for great vocals, the vocals on Love You might be the poorest vocals on any Beach Boys album.  I won't even go into the lyrics or production because I think good music can transcend lyric or production issues.  


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bonnie bella

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Reply with quote  #45 
Exsqueeze me for butting in ...

Love this song.  [love]

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